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<p><tt><font size="2">My thoughts. Remember, they are probably only worth what you paid for them! ;p</font></tt><br>
<br>
<tt><font size="2">Nick Zivkovic <zivkovic.nick@gmail.com> wrote on 09/01/2012 10:42:14 AM:<br>
> <br>
> Yes. I am more interested in contributing drivers and the like. As far<br>
> as packages go, to be honest, I've experienced torture at the hands of<br>
> IPS (though that could very easily be my fault), and am reluctant go<br>
> near it. For example I tried an image-update and it failed. So I am<br>
> stuck on OI-147 until I backup-reinstall-import to OI-151a.<br>
> <br>
> I think packages are a high priority, but not as high as making sure<br>
> the latest illumos-gate can build and run on a modern desktop. For<br>
> example, I can't get SmartOS running on a thinkpad or my desktop<br>
> computer. Somewhere in June 2012, a bug was introduced that prevents<br>
> the illumos kernel from booting. If I had been building and testing<br>
> the latest source, that bug could probably have been caught before it<br>
> got buried in a mountain of commits. Now, I image, it is like finding<br>
> a needle in a haystack.<br>
> <br>
> I am willing to assist with packages, but my time is limited, and I<br>
> think it is more important to direct my effort to building<br>
> illumos-gate and writing drivers. Also, making packages is still a<br>
> black art to me, and wouldn't know where to start.<br>
</font></tt><br>
<tt><font size="2">One of the biggest issues here isn't that packages are particularly HARD to make with IPS (they aren't). It's that there are about three different approaches to it, and we need to get that standardized. Many of the packages are tied up in the consolidations, which DO seem to have a high barrier to entry. I considered putting together a source-juicer-like self-service system for building packages. If I can get the time, I'll revisit that. It would make my (and everyone else's, I think) life easier.</font></tt><br>
<tt><font size="2"> <br>
> But since we are already on the topic of packages, Adam, do you think<br>
> there is a way to make it less painful, more consistent? I'm _not_<br>
> talking about extreme measures like changing from IPS to<br>
> [DEB/RPM/SVR/etc]. I'm wondering if we could 1) make IPS easier to use<br>
> by documenting stuff in an easily accessible way [the man pages aren't<br>
> very helpful] </font></tt><br>
<br>
<tt><font size="2">The wiki would be an ideal place for this to happen. Frankly, I haven't see much trouble with the man pages from a user perspective, but from the developer's side, it could definitely use some work. Much of this was documented in the OS.o site, but we need to not depend on that.</font></tt><br>
<br>
<tt><font size="2">> 2) document every single IPS failure and either fix the<br>
> packages or the IPS code (depend on what caused the failure), and </font></tt><br>
<br>
<tt><font size="2">First thought here is that it needs to be in the bug tracker, but that may not be easily accessible either. Maybe a sub-page on the wiki?</font></tt><br>
<br>
<tt><font size="2">> 3)<br>
> have IPS install all userland libs to a zfs dataset named rpool/ips or<br>
> rpool/pkgs; this way, we can zfs-send these datasets, and snap-shot<br>
> them, and clone them, without pulling in the rest of the file-system<br>
> heirarchy. This would make my bitterness toward IPS reduce<br>
> significantly. This way, you can migrate different user-land configs<br>
> between systems. Also, an easy way to do updates across a multitude of<br>
> systems. One can share their binaries and packages via zfs-send,<br>
> because they won't destroy an existing system's /usr /bin and so<br>
> forth. Also, OI would benefit tremendously from offering pre-made NG<br>
> zones on the web-site, available for downloading and running. In fact,<br>
> we could use Zones as a delivery mechanism for things like an Illumos<br>
> build-environment. An NG zone can contain a working and sandboxed<br>
> version of firefox. Zones are a great technology that can make the<br>
> system more attractive amateur power users who may become programmers<br>
> some day (like I did). Multiple ways of sharing pre-compiled binaries<br>
> can only help OI and Illumos. In fact I can see people sharing<br>
> datasets with packages via bit-torrent. Plus, incremental send/recv is<br>
> a huge benefit.</font></tt><br>
<br>
<tt><font size="2">Back in the bad-old-days, (if memory serves) a basic copy of userland was kept in /bin and /sbin that did not depend on anything. This was done to allow you to NFS mount everything else. IIRC the decision was made to go ahead and make them dynamicly linked because noone NFS mounts them anymore anyway, and it meant we had to keep both a simplified and full version of the programs. I think this will encounter many similar issues as that. If we are going back down this road, we could consider just delivering a /bin and /sbin we can use as you propose. It would have the advantage of bringing back this lost (albit rarely used) functionality.</font></tt><br>
<br>
<tt><font size="2">That said, there is nothing stopping anyone from delivering a basic userland in /rpool/pkgs, although I would suggest using an alternate mount point in /usr (/usr/zdu or some-such? solaris has a long history of delivering alternate userlands in filesystems off of /usr).<br>
<br>
> We might even be able to integrate a window manager (like i3 or dwm)<br>
> so that switching virtual desktop, actually switches to another zone.<br>
</font></tt><br>
<tt><font size="2">Can you do this in zones? Frankly, all my other zones have always been on the commandline for build environments and such, so I don't know. Zones are already pretty sweet in my book, but if something like this is already there, that's a whole other level.</font></tt><br>
<tt><font size="2"> <br>
> What kind of changes to IPS are OI willing to accept? I am willing to<br>
> test and improve a lot of code. As I said, I dislike IPS. But I am<br>
> willing to help make it better and more usable.<br>
</font></tt><br>
<tt><font size="2">It might be good if you could say what you have in mind. I don't believe we are particularly wedded to what Oracle does anymore, so if you have ideas speak up!</font></tt><br>
<tt><font size="2"><br>
> Also, a major problem with IPS is that Sun encouraged people to use it<br>
> to _consume_ packages, but they didn't encourage people to _create_<br>
> packages. We need a self-fueling ecosystem of packages.<br>
</font></tt><br>
<tt><font size="2">That's not completely true. Sun did encourage package creation, that's what Source Juicer was about. It was marginally effective, there where a number of us outsiders who did contribute packages that way. It was just soo damn easy, it was almost harder to NOT contribute! I strongly think we need something like that back. I'll see what I can hack up, and see if we are interested in officially supporting something like that when I am done.</font></tt><br>
<br>
<tt><font size="2">OTOH the way they handled consolidations is a nightmare that we inherited, but I'm not sure I know how to fix it. Many wiser then I have tried, and it seems to always end in tears.</font></tt><br>
<tt><font size="2"> <br>
> I also think that SmartOS's diskless boot model is great. I think that<br>
> booting from disk is great too. Shouldn't OI support both? I'm willing<br>
> to contribute to this.<br>
</font></tt><br>
<tt><font size="2">Personlly, I'm not interested in a diskless boot model. I think it's highly niche, and I think SmartOS does a fine job there. In purposing the work for that, I have to ask, what compelling element do we bring to the table? </font></tt><br>
<tt><font size="2"><br>
> I know these ideas come from SmartOS to some extent, but they are<br>
> great ideas that could make OI better! Making a new distribution is<br>
> one way to try to make things better. But I think a metamorphosis in<br>
> the OI distro will be more effective. I want the many Illumos distros<br>
> to be held up as an example of triumphant collaboration, 5 years from<br>
> now. But that will happen only if we avoid going down the path of<br>
> NIH-inspired suicide.<br>
</font></tt><br>
<tt><font size="2">I don't want an NIH-fest either, but I also think we need to be pragmatic. I don't want to compete with SmartOS on diskless, unless we have something to really offer. They are doing one thing and doing it well. As much as I don't want to die to NIH, I also don't want us to be a jack-of-all-trades, and a master of none.</font></tt><br>
<tt><font size="2"> <br>
> So, in short I am willing to contribute, to OpenIndiana and Illumos. I<br>
> will get OI-151 installed today or tomorrow.<br>
> <br>
> I will try to build illumos-gate, and will report back with any problems.<br>
> <br>
> I would appreciate any pointers on making new packages.<br>
> <br>
> Is it possible to make a new zone without an internet connection?<br>
</font></tt><br>
<tt><font size="2">The short answer is no. The long answer is kinda.</font></tt><br>
<br>
<tt><font size="2">If you have a local IPS mirror, you can point it at that. There are instructions on mirroring the repo here </font></tt><br>
<br>
<tt><font size="2"><a href="http://wiki.openindiana.org/oi/Mirroring+OpenIndiana#MirroringOpenIndiana-Oldcontentfollows">http://wiki.openindiana.org/oi/Mirroring+OpenIndiana#MirroringOpenIndiana-Oldcontentfollows</a></font></tt><br>
<br>
<tt><font size="2">I know it's not ideal, but it is what it is.</font></tt><br>
<tt><font size="2"> <br>
> Where can I find the OI plans for future IPS features and improvements.<br>
</font></tt><br>
<tt><font size="2">There hasn't been a lot of discussion about future improvements. I think there has been someone looking at improving performance, but I can't recall who right now.</font></tt><br>
<tt><font size="2"> <br>
> Also, I don't know if this is available in your repos, but if not, I<br>
> am going to port and package the i3 window manager for OI, if I have<br>
> trouble I'll let you guys know.</font></tt><br>
<tt><font size="2">> <br>
> I am going to see what I can do about pre-built NG zones.<br>
></font></tt><br>
<tt><font size="2">> I will try to find resources about NG zones, making new brands,<br>
> modifying existing brands, etc.<br>
</font></tt><br>
<tt><font size="2">Sweet! Although, I'm not sure what a new brand would be required for, although I'll admit I've only been a user of zones, not looked at how it is written in-depth.</font></tt><br>
<tt><font size="2"> <br>
> Also, I recommend updating the mission statement on the web page. It<br>
> is "coming soon", and not very inspiring.<br>
> <br>
> I recommend something along the lines of "making cutting edge<br>
> technology available to power users on the desktop..." and then<br>
> advertise the technologies. Trust me, it is the power users, not the<br>
> simple desktop users that you want. Basically an incubator for future<br>
> illumos devs, and a platform for those who like to play with cool tech<br>
> they won't get anywhere else.<br>
</font></tt><br>
<tt><font size="2">I have the required permission to do this, but I am loathe to make changes without some kind of meeting or at least an on-list vote to approve the specifics. Maybe if you have something in mind you could toss it up, and someone could approve it (AFAICT, I don't even have the authority to vote, let alone make a unilateral decision). Otherwise I'll bang something out.</font></tt><br>
<tt><font size="2"> <br>
> Thanks.<br>
> </font></tt><br>
<tt><font size="2"><br>
*snipped stuff I wasn't responding to in the interests of brevity*</font></tt><br>
<br>
<font size="2" face="sans-serif">Andrew Hettinger<br>
<a href="http://Prominic.NET">http://Prominic.NET</a> || AHettinger@Prominic.NET<br>
Tel: 866.339.3169 (toll free) -or- +1.217.356.2888 x.110 (int'l) <br>
Fax: 866.372.3356 (toll free) -or- +1.217.356.3356 (int'l)<br>
</font><br>
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