On Tue, Jun 4, 2013 at 2:15 AM, Garrett D'Amore <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:garrett.damore@dey-sys.com" target="_blank">garrett.damore@dey-sys.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div class="im">Getting any product to stable, supported solution almost by definition means that the product has to involve more than a single individual. I see Martin's challenge here is to involve other community members, and build momentum around this work. Then he can start getting serious about ways to monetize it. Right now, with only him, its a fiscal dead end. Unfortunately, he's created some serious non-technical hurdles to building that community. I am not sure they can be overcome, honestly.<br>
</div></blockquote><div><br><br>Mr, D'Amore, actually I didn't want to respond, because now after this even the blind can see, that you are neither a community leader, nor worth my time.<br><br>So let's summarize:<br>
<br><a href="http://openindiana.org/pipermail/oi-dev/2013-June/002186.html" target="_blank">http://openindiana.org/pipermail/oi-dev/2013-June/002186.html</a><br><br><a href="http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/182179/2013/06/sort/time_rev/page/1/entry/23:63/20130604101617:4F2986CE-CD21-11E2-AC8B-9A438E4EE1E7/" target="_blank">http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/182179/2013/06/sort/time_rev/page/1/entry/23:63/20130604101617:4F2986CE-CD21-11E2-AC8B-9A438E4EE1E7/</a><br>
<br><a href="http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/182179/2013/06/sort/time_rev/page/2/entry/21:63/20130603183050:3CCA0884-CC9D-11E2-B843-CA95B0B77CF6/" target="_blank">http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/182179/2013/06/sort/time_rev/page/2/entry/21:63/20130603183050:3CCA0884-CC9D-11E2-B843-CA95B0B77CF6/</a><br>
<br><a href="http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/182179/2013/06/sort/time_rev/page/2/" target="_blank">http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/182179/2013/06/sort/time_rev/page/2/</a><div class="yj6qo ajU"><div id=":1tq" class="ajR" tabindex="0">
<img class="ajT" src="https://mail.google.com/mail/u/0/images/cleardot.gif"><br><br><br>Among other bright thoughts that you let out, you state on such a public forum stuff like:<br><br>"Martin is insane." <br>"Not on his pills, literally."<br>
"Not worth a job."<br>"Produces stuff that nobody wants and that nobody uses."<br>"That has now business value."<br>"That is mostly worthless and unusable."<br>"Should disconnect from Solaris and look for (another) job.<br>
<br>The best thing: You wrote that you never tried OpenSXCE.<br><br>Here again the x86 screenshots (SPARC has reached the same stability now, I wanted to release SPARC 2013.05 this night) :<br><br><a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/96825400@N05/sets/72157633874850547/">http://www.flickr.com/photos/96825400@N05/sets/72157633874850547/</a><br>
</div></div><br>Mr. D'Amore, you say you are a community leader of an open minded FREE SOFTWARE Project?<br>How does it then come, that every second of your words is either "market", "business" or "shareholders"?<br>
<br>And one of my last qestions to you: How would you explain, why OpenSXCE is all that "crap" you stated, if the screenshoots should somehow look familiar to you, if you know OpenIndiana. Maybe onbly better and supporting SPARC addittionally.<br>
<br><br>My naive dream goal had been, to deliver you a Developer- (yet universal purpose) OS for your commercial *and* freebee users, that want to build the Illumos kernel on a stable platform. The OS is ready. Now I see _this_.<br>
All I wanted was some official recognition from you and these folks that live on the illumos lists, yet never even say hello to me.<br><br>You folks confuse "not publishing and discussing code at this (respectless) level" with "not being able to produce code".<br>
I just read on your list in one of these threads, that I'm a newbie.<br>I don't know what I should say about this. The fact you do not know anything about me is != am nothing.<br>Think about this.<br><br>A few days ago I wrote to your list a pointer, that I have developed a secret for you.<br>
I just had no time to polish it up yet. And, boy: I bet it does have a business value for your beloved capitalist companies: I enhanced the installer to support diskas larger than 2047GB as install target.<br><br><br>Well, it is good that I was so careful.<br>
Because I never trusted you.<br><br>But what we all - worldwide - saw from you today, was just a mature achiement of yours.<br>I could not thank you more, than that you have shown all your true colors in such an un-hidden manner.<br>
<br>Ah, and yes: Community building. I do agree that I developed everything alone and "in scret" during the bootstrap phase. This is just my personal working habit, as I explained a hundret times on Twitter and elsewhere.<br>
I know that you never took the 5 secs to visit my twitter account, although I had sent you 3 or 4 requests over time, plus have it as my footer under most mails.<br><br>Unfortunately, after I read your and Joyent's mails, at first I was in a mood to whine and die. I deleted my twitter accounts, now just re-created. Unfortunately the followers may be lost.<br>
<br>HAD ***YOU*** read a single day-set of my tweets, you would actually know something about me, my interaction with friends, my correct working habits and so on. The problem with you and some of your guys is exactly, that you are NOT open for community interaction, new ideas, proposals and so on. I (for example) explained all these in my tweets. How has read my tweets can confirm this. For example:<br>
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<p class="js-tweet-text tweet-text">Hi! Just sent the newest Status updates to <a href="https://twitter.com/MartinBochnig" class="twitter-atreply pretty-link" dir="ltr"><s>@</s><b>MartinBochnig</b></a> . SPARC 2013.05 soon ready.</p>
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<p class="js-tweet-text tweet-text">For example, we can even decide to base OpenSXCE on <a href="http://t.co/IF3OO5muCB" rel="nofollow" dir="ltr" class="twitter-timeline-link" target="_blank" title="http://DilOS.org"><span class="invisible">http://</span><span class="js-display-url">DilOS.org</span><span class="invisible"></span><span class="tco-ellipsis"><span class="invisible"> </span></span></a> It is not about me or x or y, but about OpenSolaris staying ALIVE</p>
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<p class="js-tweet-text tweet-text">Thanks for joining. I'm absolutely open to fully open multidistro cooperation.</p></div></div></li></ol><p><br></p><p><br></p><p><br></p><p>or:</p><p><br></p><p><br></p><p><br>
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<p class="js-tweet-text tweet-text"><a href="https://twitter.com/proud_ceh" class="twitter-atreply pretty-link" dir="ltr"><s>@</s><b>proud_ceh</b></a> I gave him root-access and he can write it much better than myself. So I'm in the process of explaining him the reasons why</p>
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<p class="js-tweet-text tweet-text"><a href="https://twitter.com/proud_ceh" class="twitter-atreply pretty-link" dir="ltr"><s>@</s><b>proud_ceh</b></a> Ken May (loyal all-time contributor) has prepared a RELEASE NOTES document for us. It describes the current limits and bugs.</p>
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Thank you dear followers, fellows, friends. I *want* you all 2have this
distro, of course incl. the src. We need to modernize it!</p></div></div></li></ol><p><br></p><p><br></p><p>I'm also in talks with DilOS.org's Igor.</p><p>My idea was to use his gate (which is based on Illumos). Because then we OpenSXCE'ians would no longer be required to say "we use llumos". Instead we could say "We are based on DilOS OS/Net".</p>
<p><br></p><p>TODAY will be remembered as a turning point in Illumos' versus overall-OpenSolaris history.</p><p>It is now perfectly clear to everybody, that your entire community propaganda was just marketing lies.</p>
<p><br></p><p>DONATIONS: I can give you a whole list of individuals that have asked me for my bank account#, IBAN and so on. That have written me MESSAGES OF THANKS privately.</p><p>And although I have no money:***** I REFUSED TO ACCEPT THESE DONATIONS (from poor people) *****<br>
</p><p>It is some moral quality, that imperialists will probably never ever grasp.</p><p>I do not take money from the poor. I want it from those that *should* pay it. Or in this case: HAVE PAID it. Because our relationship is over, and it relieves me.</p>
<p><br></p><p><br></p><p>As to the other things you said: I still have the $$$ from my 2nd Ultra45 that I sold last week.</p>700 EUR (1000$ or something) are not very much for an attorney. Fortunately I have a friends in many countries, including the U.S. And one of them has a wife, that is attorney (her special area is the web).<br>
<br><br>I thank you, that you uncovered your true standpoint.<br>BTW, Before I deleted my twitter account, the number of followers just jumped from 70 to 89 on @martinbochnig and from 0 to 36 on @opensxce. And most of them were best known longterm community engineers, incl. Moinak Ghosh, Andrew Stormont, Al Hopper, Alan Coopersmith, Alexander Eremin, Joerg Schilling (nice what kind of garbage you write about him!, just today you have proven he was right when he warned me c oncerning Illumos), Anil Gulecha, Nexenta and so on and so on. I wanted to rescue the OpenSolaris community in a inter-distro-unity effort.<br>
And I still want.<br><br>Honestly, had YOU worked that much, and then FOR FREE, day in day out (often up to 20hrs per day), I bet you had either given up way way back, or you would have gone crazy over the workload. I find few words for what I just experienced today. SHAME ON YOU, Garrett!<br>
<br>Really last but not least, especially for you:<br><br><br>Here is my vita:<br><br>Maths studies at Technical University Berlin still unfinished (although continuing). Reason: OPenSolaris.<br>I hold several Sun certifications:<br>
<br>SCSA 8, 9<br>SCNA 8, 9<br>and SCSecA 9.<br><br>Everything
else I ever did was Blastwave, Qemu port to Solaris, Xorg port to
SPARC-Solaris and I built my first distro in April 2006, it is all
documented, for example in the OpenSolaris Bible: <br>
<a href="http://my.safaribooksonline.com/book/databases/solaris/9780470385487/installing-opensolaris/martux" target="_blank">http://my.safaribooksonline.com/book/databases/solaris/9780470385487/installing-opensolaris/martux</a><br>
<br>And I held a session at OSDEVCON 2007:<br>
<a href="http://www.google.de/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&ved=0CEAQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.guug.de%2Fveranstaltungen%2Fosdevcon2007%2Fabstracts.html&ei=SVyuUdvNHOTg4QTBlICoCg&v6u=https%3A%2F%2Fs-v6exp1-ds.metric.gstatic.com%2Fgen_204%3Fip%3D2003%3A46%3Aa02%3Ab601%3A21d%3A72ff%3Afe18%3Af627%26ts%3D1370381385725816%26auth%3Djhaffithvkvobdbchcdemsfqvvurcb4e%26rndm%3D0.7263904849596251&v6s=2&v6t=6956&usg=AFQjCNF1Ih9wHDZcc1a-ks4LWZfJ6xm1Kw&bvm=bv.47244034,d.bGE" target="_blank">http://www.google.de/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&ved=0CEAQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.guug.de%2Fveranstaltungen%2Fosdevcon2007%2Fabstracts.html&ei=SVyuUdvNHOTg4QTBlICoCg&v6u=https%3A%2F%2Fs-v6exp1-ds.metric.gstatic.com%2Fgen_204%3Fip%3D2003%3A46%3Aa02%3Ab601%3A21d%3A72ff%3Afe18%3Af627%26ts%3D1370381385725816%26auth%3Djhaffithvkvobdbchcdemsfqvvurcb4e%26rndm%3D0.7263904849596251&v6s=2&v6t=6956&usg=AFQjCNF1Ih9wHDZcc1a-ks4LWZfJ6xm1Kw&bvm=bv.47244034,d.bGE</a><br>
<br><a href="http://www.google.de/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CDkQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.guug.de%2Fveranstaltungen%2Fosdevcon2007%2Fslides%2FmarTux___OSDevCon2007.pdf&ei=SVyuUdvNHOTg4QTBlICoCg&usg=AFQjCNFtuXTfzG_OjCAcS0uq_7u53rqDWA&bvm=bv.47244034,d.bGE" target="_blank">http://www.google.de/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CDkQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.guug.de%2Fveranstaltungen%2Fosdevcon2007%2Fslides%2FmarTux___OSDevCon2007.pdf&ei=SVyuUdvNHOTg4QTBlICoCg&usg=AFQjCNFtuXTfzG_OjCAcS0uq_7u53rqDWA&bvm=bv.47244034,d.bGE</a><br>
<br><br>I was OpenSolaris Core Contributor in the CAB (Community
advisory board) for MartUX. Also in the X11 group for the FOX
(FullyOpenX) sparc and also x86 work.<br><br>I also ported the aperture
driver (predecessor to xsvc) to amd64 in spring 2006. In summer of 2006 I
created the FIRST EVER non-sun (SXCE) distro, to support Xorg in amd64
64bit kernel mode.<br>
<br>Everything is in the archives.<br><br><br><br>Garrett, I wish you, you personally one day meet yourself in your life.<br>To the OpenSXCE community: BIG BIG THANKS.<br>Show will continue as planned, just without the Illumos logos.<br>
Src will follow, as licenses require.<br><br>Do you know the CDDL and the X11 MIT licenses, btw ?<br>We OpenSXCE'ians can publish or not publish the src, at will.<br><br><br><br><br>-- <br>regards<br><br>%martin bochnig<br>
<a href="http://svr4.opensxce.org/sparc/5.11/" target="_blank">http://svr4.opensxce.org/sparc/5.11/</a><br> <a href="http://opensxce.org/" target="_blank">http://opensxce.org/</a><br> <a href="http://wiki.openindiana.org/oi/MartUX_OpenIndiana+oi_151a+SPARC+LiveDVD" target="_blank">http://wiki.openindiana.org/oi/MartUX_OpenIndiana+oi_151a+SPARC+LiveDVD</a><br>
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/user/MartUXopensolaris" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/user/MartUXopensolaris</a><br> <a href="https://twitter.com/MartinBochnig" target="_blank">https://twitter.com/MartinBochnig</a><br>
<br> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div class="im"></div>
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Were I in his shoes, I'd probably have long since given up on the fruitlessness of this effort, and sought out something that would pay the bills. Getting upset because folks won't pay for something they don't need and don't use, is not normal rational thinking. Put another way, I think its time for Martin to find a regular job. Perhaps one that is disconnected from illumos or Solaris, so that he can approach the job with a bit of emotional detachment.<br>
<div class="im"><br>
><br>
> I would like to see you supported in your work, but I'm a lowly software engineer in UK with 3 kids, and no pay rise for > 3 years ... so the only way I could contribute would be to put myself in further debt, and no matter how good the product is, if I don't have to pay for it, I won't be paying.<br>
<br>
</div>Actually, that's generally the problem. Most (all?) of his work has little commercial value to the current primary commercial contributors to illumos. So as much as we'd like to be able to support efforts like his, it makes no financial sense for a business to pay for this. And ultimately, businesses are about business. And business are answerable to their shareholders. Even as a founder in a business, I am not at liberty to spend money that I cannot justify commercially -- my investors would fire me, or sue me, or both, if I tried that.<br>
<br>
Personally, I've not yet tried out his distro -- I'm not a big fan of SVR4 either, but I'm probably less a fan of the implementation of IPS. I may take a look -- if I find it something useful, then I'll send some money his way personally, by way of thank-you. But as an individual, it won't be enough to stave off his financial problems. I strongly doubt there are enough of us to make this viable to Martin unless he can figure out some way to properly commercialize it.<br>
<div class="im"><br>
><br>
> As for making the source available or not, would you not be in breach of the license terms to withhold it?<br>
<br>
</div>That depends on what he's done. Certainly distribution of the binaries that are derived from open source would require conformance to the open source licenses. However, if for example, he's written a new installer without using any other 3rd party open source, then he's free to do with that what he wants.<br>
<br>
That said, its unlikely that failing to meet open source obligations is going to draw any negative response -- its not like Martin is a big target for a lawsuit -- by his own words he has nothing to lose, and nobody is losing customers to him. That said, not meeting open source obligations is also not supportive of any positive growth that he might hope to achieve, and only serves to further distance himself from the community.<br>
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- Garrett<br>
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