<div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large">I think the general
idea is to get to a minimum criteria as basis for wider collaboration.
We have to start small and manageable and agreeable. Then others will
follow if they see the benefits of that working together for a healthier
code and healthier community guidelines, then there will be lower
barriers for participation, more consensus-building and pooling together
the best solutions out there.<br>
<br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large">I am
inviting Alasdair, Peter Tribble, Jörg Schilling and Martin Bochnig to
discuss this and find the best way forward in creating this smaller
circle to create greater trust and more support from within the
OpenSolaris-derived communities and the wider ecosystem. The perks
would be participation of more stakeholders and better performance from
healthy code maintenance and less work for we know who does what where,
this further invites more hobbyist and professionals to devote their
time if we have a better framework. In a sense we need to build
confidence in the core technologies.<br>
<br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large">Thank you
all for your response. I am driving you to re-think. It is my personal
dream to see our community finally take off and overcome this "heritage
of missing collaboration" from Sun in illumos and OpenIndiana.<br>
<br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large">I am very positive about future collaboration with UNIX lovers so we can evolve the best UNIX ever.<br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large">
<br><br><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large">
Sincerely yours,<br><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large">Seth Nimbosa, your Brother and Comrade-in-Arms<br>
</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large;display:inline"></div><font size="1"><a href="http://twitter.com/nimbosa" target="_blank">http://twitter.com/nimbosa</a><br>
<a href="http://FB.com/nimbosa" target="_blank">FB.com/nimbosa</a></font><br><br clear="all"><br></div><br clear="all"><div><div dir="ltr"><br><br> ---------- <font color="#ff0000" face="verdana, sans-serif" size="4"><b>* * *</b></font> ----------<br>
<br><font face="verdana, sans-serif"><i> Normal is getting dressed in clothes that you buy for work</i></font><div><font face="verdana, sans-serif"><i>and driving through traffic in a car that you are still paying for -</i></font></div>
<div><font face="verdana, sans-serif"><i>in order to get to the job you need to pay for the clothes and the car,<br>and the house you leave vacant all day so you can afford to live in it. </i><br><br> - Ellen Goodman</font><br>
</div></div></div>
<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Feb 13, 2014 at 4:41 AM, Peter Tribble <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:peter.tribble@gmail.com" target="_blank">peter.tribble@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr"><div>On Wed, Feb 12, 2014 at 10:34 AM, Alasdair Lumsden <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:alasdairrr@gmail.com" target="_blank">alasdairrr@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
</div><div class="gmail_extra"><div><div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><br><div>TribbliX
was a for fun desktop-oriented distro (correct me if I'm wrong) by
someone that hates IPS and loves SVR4 packaging. I got the impression
Peter never seemed to want to help OI out directly because of the IPS
issue.</div>
</div></blockquote><div><br></div></div><div>That's partially true, but not entirely. It's true that I hate IPS,<br></div><div>part of that is emotional and psychological scars that will<br></div><div>probably never heal, and they run deep.<br>
<br>I have no particular love for SVR4 - it's there, it's compatible with<br>every other Solaris system I run, it's good enough (unlike IPS), it<br>doesn't suffer from the crippling technical limitations of IPS, and<br>
I'm sufficiently familiar with it that I can use it with zero effort. For a<br></div><div>hobby distro, minimizing effort is paramount. Had I come from<br>a different background, I might have chosen rpm or dpkg.<br>
</div><div><br></div><div>Tribblix is definitely for fun, and has the advantage that I completely<br></div><div>understand the needs of its target audience. (Currently, just me.)<br></div><div>Desktop orientation is a reflection of current state rather than future<br>
</div><div>intentions, though.<br><br></div><font size="4">People naturally work on different things in different ways. If there's<div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large;display:inline"> </div>a net benefit to working together (and there are always costs to doing<div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large;display:inline">
</div>so - whether that be making a commitment, surrendering control, fitting<div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large;display:inline"> </div>in to alien processes, or having to support something you're opposed to)<div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large;display:inline">
</div>then people will do so; it gets much harder if there isn't a net benefit.<br></font></div><div class="gmail_quote"><div><font size="4"><br>I decided that the amount of effort I would have to expend to make</font><font size="4"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large;display:inline">
</div>another distro do what I want was far higher than the effort<div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large;display:inline"> </div>needed to directly build it from scratch, and I was right on that.<div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large;display:inline">
</div>And, just as importantly, I learnt far more from doing so than I<div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large;display:inline"> </div>would have otherwise.</font><br><br></div><div>I suspect that there will always be multiple distros - we have multiple<br>
</div><div>packaging systems, variant desktop philosophies, appliance vs<br></div><div>server vs desktop vs general-purpose. The real focus ought to be<br>
illumos, and any distro adds to the overall ecosystem.<br></div><div><br></div><div>Strengthening that ecosystem ought to be the goal, not picking<br>a winning distro or forcing people with different aims and objectives<br>
</div><div>to toe some common party line. In many ways, much of that work<br></div><div>needs to be done outside our own community - by working with<br></div><div>other communities to strengthen their support of illumos/Solaris<br>
based systems.<br></div><div><br></div>(Ideally, you want other communities to build and distribute software<br>for you. That's one area where IPS is a huge obstacle - all this<br>repository stuff is an intolerable burden on third parties, pushes you<br>
in the direction of central control and bottlenecks, and discourages<br></div><div class="gmail_quote">the long tail of drive-by contributors that is key to successful<br></div><div class="gmail_quote">
projects. [See what Linus was talking about recently, although<br></div><div class="gmail_quote">that was about the problems with CLAs. Same issue of reducing<br></div><div class="gmail_quote">barriers to participation, though.])<span><font color="#888888"><br>
</font></span></div><span><font color="#888888"><div class="gmail_quote"><br></div>-- <br>-Peter Tribble<br><a href="http://www.petertribble.co.uk/" target="_blank">http://www.petertribble.co.uk/</a> - <a href="http://ptribble.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">http://ptribble.blogspot.com/</a>
</font></span></div></div>
</blockquote></div>______________________________<div class="gmail_extra">_________________<br><font size="1">On Wed, Feb 12, 2014 at 9:42 PM, Joerg Schilling <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de" target="_blank">Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de</a>><div class="gmail_default" style="display:inline">
wrote:</div><br><br></span>The problem with OpenIndiana is that it is a continuation project for "Sun<br>
Indiana". Sun Indiana however (if ignoring the IPS issue) has been created<br>
using my project proposal for a community based distro I send to Sun in 2005.<br>
Sun did take the ideas from the proposal but did not collaborate...</font><br>
<br>
OpenIndiana for this reason has a heritage of missing collaboration. It needs<br>
to be restructured in order to prevent contradictions with other distros in<br>
order to allow collaboration.<br>
<div><br>
> XStreamOS, DilOS, Schillix etc all have their own goals and agendas, and<br>
> again, have no interest in collaborating.<br>
<br>
</div>I cannot speak for the other distros, but SchilliX definitely is interested in<br>
collaboration once possible partners do not act in a way that prevents<br>
collaboration. Note that I am trying to support collaboration since September<br>
2004 and definitely since June 17 2005 when SchilliX was published as the first<br>
OpenSolaris based distro.<br>
<br>
What do we need for collaboration?<br>
<br>
Well....<br>
<br>
<font size="4">- IPS must not be the only packaging<br>
<br>
- /usr/gnu must not be the default first entry in PATH<br>
<br>
- /sbin/sh may be a link to the Bourne Shell<br>
<br>
- scripts need to be open for being able to mount /usr using<br>
the Bourne Shell.<br>
<br>
- We need to find a way for versioned libraries to support<br>
as much binary compatibility as possible.</font><br>
<br>
Jörg</div></div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br clear="all"><div><div dir="ltr"><br><br> ---------- <font size="4" face="verdana, sans-serif" color="#ff0000"><b>* * *</b></font> ----------<br><br><font face="verdana, sans-serif"><i> Normal is getting dressed in clothes that you buy for work</i></font><div>
<font face="verdana, sans-serif"><i>and driving through traffic in a car that you are still paying for -</i></font></div><div><font face="verdana, sans-serif"><i>in order to get to the job you need to pay for the clothes and the car,<br>
and the house you leave vacant all day so you can afford to live in it. </i><br><br> - Ellen Goodman</font><br></div></div></div>
<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Feb 13, 2014 at 4:41 AM, Peter Tribble <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:peter.tribble@gmail.com" target="_blank">peter.tribble@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr"><div class="">On Wed, Feb 12, 2014 at 10:34 AM, Alasdair Lumsden <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:alasdairrr@gmail.com" target="_blank">alasdairrr@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
</div><div class="gmail_extra"><div class="gmail_quote"><div class=""><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><br><div>TribbliX was a for fun desktop-oriented distro (correct me if I'm wrong) by someone that hates IPS and loves SVR4 packaging. I got the impression Peter never seemed to want to help OI out directly because of the IPS issue.</div>
</div></blockquote><div><br></div></div><div>That's partially true, but not entirely. It's true that I hate IPS,<br></div><div>part of that is emotional and psychological scars that will<br></div><div>probably never heal, and they run deep.<br>
<br>I have no particular love for SVR4 - it's there, it's compatible with<br>every other Solaris system I run, it's good enough (unlike IPS), it<br>doesn't suffer from the crippling technical limitations of IPS, and<br>
I'm sufficiently familiar with it that I can use it with zero effort. For a<br></div><div>hobby distro, minimizing effort is paramount. Had I come from<br>a different background, I might have chosen rpm or dpkg.<br>
</div><div><br></div><div>Tribblix is definitely for fun, and has the advantage that I completely<br></div><div>understand the needs of its target audience. (Currently, just me.)<br></div><div>Desktop orientation is a reflection of current state rather than future<br>
</div><div>intentions, though.<br><br></div>People naturally work on different things in different ways. If there's<br>a net benefit to working together (and there are always costs to doing<br>so - whether that be making a commitment, surrendering control, fitting<br>
in to alien processes, or having to support something you're opposed to)<br></div><div class="gmail_quote"><div>then people will do so; it gets much harder if there isn't a net benefit.<br></div><div><br>I decided that the amount of effort I would have to expend to make<br>
</div><div>another distro do what I want was far higher than the effort<br>needed to directly build it from scratch, and I was right on that.<br></div><div>And, just as importantly, I learnt far more from doing so than I<br>
would have otherwise.<br><br></div><div>I suspect that there will always be multiple distros - we have multiple<br></div><div>packaging systems, variant desktop philosophies, appliance vs<br></div><div>server vs desktop vs general-purpose. The real focus ought to be<br>
illumos, and any distro adds to the overall ecosystem.<br></div><div><br></div><div>Strengthening that ecosystem ought to be the goal, not picking<br>a winning distro or forcing people with different aims and objectives<br>
</div><div>to toe some common party line. In many ways, much of that work<br></div><div>needs to be done outside our own community - by working with<br></div><div>other communities to strengthen their support of illumos/Solaris<br>
based systems.<br></div><div><br></div>(Ideally, you want other communities to build and distribute software<br>for you. That's one area where IPS is a huge obstacle - all this<br>repository stuff is an intolerable burden on third parties, pushes you<br>
in the direction of central control and bottlenecks, and discourages<br></div><div class="gmail_quote"></div><div class="gmail_quote">the long tail of drive-by contributors that is key to successful<br></div><div class="gmail_quote">
projects. [See what Linus was talking about recently, although<br></div><div class="gmail_quote">that was about the problems with CLAs. Same issue of reducing<br></div><div class="gmail_quote">barriers to participation, though.])<span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888"><br>
</font></span></div><span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888"><div class="gmail_quote"><br></div>-- <br>-Peter Tribble<br><a href="http://www.petertribble.co.uk/" target="_blank">http://www.petertribble.co.uk/</a> - <a href="http://ptribble.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">http://ptribble.blogspot.com/</a>
</font></span></div></div>
</blockquote></div><br></div>