[oi-dev] Where should SPARC go?

[Peter Tribble]

Andrew,

Welcome!

On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 2:16 PM Andrew Luke Nesbit <
ullbeking at andrewnesbit.org> wrote:

> On 17/01/2020 14:32, Volker A. Brandt wrote:
> > Hi Andrew!
>
> Hi Volker!  Thank you for the warm and encouraging message.
>
> >> I have been discussing my options for what OS to install on a Sun
> >> T5140.  I plan to use this as a multi-user OS, virtualization host,
> >> and ZFS file server.
> >
> > The T5140 are nice machines.
>
> Yes, I believe that this should be an interesting and productive machine
> to work with.
>

It's what Tribblix (and current illumos for SPARC) are developed on. I'm
ripping
the untested and unsupported code for some of the older and more expensive
systems, but the T5140 is pretty much an ideal target for illumos.

Nice, if noisy. (Demonstrates Amdahl's law quite nicely, too.)


> I have yet to take full inventory of its hardware and to see how I can
> upgrade it to make the most of it.  Thankfully I have a local contact
> who is a Sun & SPARC & Solaris expert.  He has been very helpful and
> charges very reasonable rates to individuals.
>
> >> It will be exposed to the Internet so other users can log in to the
> >> base OS or their VM's.  I will therefore harden the system and deploy
> >> it in a network environment such as a DMZ and/or allow access via a
> >> hardened VPN or jump box.
> >
> > Depending on what hardware you have available, you may want to use
> > a LDOM for this.
>

Not a bad plan. I used LDOMs when creating the initial version of Tribblix
for SPARC - it's a lot easier to do boot testing in an LDOM than a physical
environment.


> This has been suggested by other Solaris users and admins too.
>
> I am actually re-considering which of the following two options will be
> better:
>
> -   Installing Solaris 11.3, which will function as a stable(?) base OS,
> and using an LDOM to install some port of illumos that works on this
> SPARC.  The problem is that Solaris 11.3 is EOL (see below) and this is
> causing me to rething.
>

If LDOMs are all you're using 11.3 for, then the fact that it's EOL doesn't
really matter.

In terms of Solaris, I see illumos having a place supporting the hardware
models
that Solaris 11 doesn't currently, but where the hardware is still useful
and easy to get.


> -   Installing a port of illumos that works on this SPARC directly to
> the bare metal.  In this case I would hope that this port also supports
> LDOM's without too much trouble.


To be honest, I don't know. We have some of the LDOM pieces; I haven't
tested
them and don't know if they're complete.


> However on the contrary I will take
> your advice to go with Solaris 11.3 (see below).
>
> Of course the advantage of LDOM's is that experimenting with different
> OS'es, plus developing any illumos-derived per se, would presumably be
> easier.
>

As said before, definitely true.


> >> My current plan is first to install Oracle Solaris 11.3 and evaluate
> >> Solaris as an option.  Before 11.3 reaches EOL I would re-evaluate
> >> whether to invest in newer, supported hardware to run a newer and
> >> supported version of Solaris.
> >
> > Solaris 11.3 has already reached EOL.  If you have a support contract,
> > you can still get security updates, but even those will stop soon.
>
> I don't have a support contract as this machine is for non-commercial
> use.  This means that certain critical documents are unavailable to me,
> e.g., the document that explains when various components of Solaris 11.3
> will be EOL'ed.  Here I am particularly concerned about security updates.
>
> >> It would be ideal and preferable if I could use an illumos-derived OS
> >> as a user.  The aim would be to develop my skills and ultimately
> >> contribute to SPARC support.  This is a more productive goal I think.
> >
> > That is certainly possible.
>
> Does "possible" imply a good end user experience?
>
> Do you know which illumos-derived OS on SPARC provides the best user
> experience?
>

Depends on the target user. The fact that you're talking about a T5140 might
indicate you're not thinking about the desktop experience. Tribblix does
most of
the things I want such a system to do, modulo the fact that a number of
modern
technologies have bypassed SPARC entirely (eg Node,JS, Golang).

Tribblix is good enough to do general software development and support, and
to
develop and support illumos. (Although, for the latter, it turns out that I
have done
a terrible job of providing a way for somebody other than myself to use
Tribblix to
do illumos development, there are a number of "works on my machine" hacks
that
I had completely forgotten about, which I need to fix at some point.)


> >> This thread has given me the impression that OpenIndiana has (some?)
> >> SPARC support.  However according to the OI FAQ I would have to run a
> >> different illumos-derived OS for SPARC support (
> >>
> https://www.openindiana.org/documentation/faq/#does-openindiana-provide-a-sparc-release
> >> ).
> >
> > This FAQ does not reflect recent developments.  Gary Mills has success-
> > fully compiled a subset of OpenIndiana to run on SPARC.
>
> I will contact Gary and find out where this is at now.
>
> >> Please could somebody clarify for me?  Also, would OpenIndiana run on
> >> my T5140?
> >
> > That subset would, yes.
>
> I'm very interested to find out what this subset is.  If the
> documentation could be pulled up to date then I think this would help a
> lot for new users to understand where SPARC is currently at re: support.
>

I think if you have a SunBlade desktop (UltraSPARC-III vintage), most of the
volume servers (V-prefixed), or a T1/T2/T2+/T3 machine (and even the M3000),
then you're in pretty good shape. Older (UltraSPARC-II) will struggle due
to sheer
age, although illumos should boot on machines like the Ultra 10 and 60.

> I would suggest that you investigate LDOMs a.k.a. "Oracle VM for SPARC",
> > and install Solaris 11.3 in a control domain on your T5140.  Then, you
> > can create LDOMs (= SPARC VMs) and install the Illumos-based OS of your
> > choice inside those LDOMs.
>
> OK, so even though Solaris 11.3 is EOL and eventually even security
> patches will stop being provided, this would still be the recommended
> option?
>
> I tried reading the document in the 11.3 documentation library that
> explains when various aspects of 11.3 will be EOL but unfortunately I
> need a support contract to access it.  Do you know when security updates
> will stop being provided?
>
> > Currently, there are:
> >
> > - Solaris 11.3
> >
> > - Tribblix (a minimal system using the SVR4 package format)
> >
> > - OpenIndiana (a subset of Openindiana using IPS packages)
> >
> > - v9os (an older version of OmniOS, using IPS packages)
> >
> > - Dilos, running Debian userland on an Illumos-based kernel
> >
> > Unfortuately, OpenSXCE is not developed any more.
>
> It seems to me that Tribblix and Dilos are the most actively developed
> open source options for SPARC.  Would this be an accurate assessment?
>

Yes. DilOS isn't really mainstream illumos. (Depending on your point of
view, this
could either be a good or bad thing, but it really is quite divergent.)
Tribblix (of which
I can speak with authority) is pretty well maintained, and I'm keeping
packages up
to date. The ISO is a bit old, but that matters less on SPARC than on intel
because
we don't keep adding support for new processors or technologies - the
target platform
is static.

Tribblix is also what I use to ensure that illumos itself still supports
SPARC (developers
do keep breaking it - not their fault as they have no way at all to test
their changes on
SPARC most of the time).


> Is OpenIndiana officially focused on x86 or do the development
> priorities also include SPARC?  (Assuming that the resources exist for
> supporting SPARC.)
>
> > Feel free to ask any questions you might have.  The Illumos mailing list
> > is also worth joining, if you aren't on it already.
>
> For the base OS I think it would be wise to choose something well
> documented and providing a reliable and robust user experience.
>
> I'll take your suggestion to start with Solaris 11.3.  I will ask, other
> people who know, what the EOL date for security updates is.
>
> I have also subscribed to various illumos lists and am heartened to see
> so much development there.
>
> Thanks again for such a warm welcome.  I'm looking forward to starting
> work with this machine.
>
> Kind regards,
>
> Andrew
> --
> OpenPGP key: EB28 0338 28B7 19DA DAB0  B193 D21D 996E 883B E5B9
>
> _______________________________________________
> oi-dev mailing list
> oi-dev at openindiana.org
> https://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/oi-dev
>


-- 
-Peter Tribble
http://www.petertribble.co.uk/ - http://ptribble.blogspot.com/
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://openindiana.org/pipermail/oi-dev/attachments/20200121/397f49af/attachment-0005.html>