[oi-dev] Desktop Illumos Still Matters

Sat Sep 1 15:42:14 UTC 2012

Yes. I am more interested in contributing drivers and the like. As far
as packages go, to be honest, I've experienced torture at the hands of
IPS (though that could very easily be my fault), and am reluctant go
near it. For example I tried an image-update and it failed. So I am
stuck on OI-147 until I backup-reinstall-import to OI-151a.

I think packages are a high priority, but not as high as making sure
the latest illumos-gate can build and run on a modern desktop. For
example, I can't get SmartOS running on a thinkpad or my desktop
computer. Somewhere in June 2012, a bug was introduced that prevents
the illumos kernel from booting. If I had been building and testing
the latest source, that bug could probably have been caught before it
got buried in a mountain of commits. Now, I image, it is like finding
a needle in a haystack.

I am willing to assist with packages, but my time is limited, and I
think it is more important to direct my effort to building
illumos-gate and writing drivers. Also, making packages is still a
black art to me, and wouldn't know where to start.

But since we are already on the topic of packages, Adam, do you think
there is a way to make it less painful, more consistent? I'm _not_
talking about extreme measures like changing from IPS to
[DEB/RPM/SVR/etc]. I'm wondering if we could 1) make IPS easier to use
by documenting stuff in an easily accessible way [the man pages aren't
very helpful] 2) document every single IPS failure and either fix the
packages or the IPS code (depend on what caused the failure), and 3)
have IPS install all userland libs to a zfs dataset named rpool/ips or
rpool/pkgs; this way, we can zfs-send these datasets, and snap-shot
them, and clone them, without pulling in the rest of the file-system
heirarchy. This would make my bitterness toward IPS reduce
significantly. This way, you can migrate different user-land configs
between systems. Also, an easy way to do updates across a multitude of
systems. One can share their binaries and packages via zfs-send,
because they won't destroy an existing system's /usr /bin and so
forth. Also, OI would benefit tremendously from offering pre-made NG
zones on the web-site, available for downloading and running. In fact,
we could use Zones as a delivery mechanism for things like an Illumos
build-environment. An NG zone can contain a working and sandboxed
version of firefox. Zones are a great technology that can make the
system more attractive amateur power users who may become programmers
some day (like I did). Multiple ways of sharing pre-compiled binaries
can only help OI and Illumos. In fact I can see people sharing
datasets with packages via bit-torrent. Plus, incremental send/recv is
a huge benefit.

We might even be able to integrate a window manager (like i3 or dwm)
so that switching virtual desktop, actually switches to another zone.

What kind of changes to IPS are OI willing to accept? I am willing to
test and improve a lot of code. As I said, I dislike IPS. But I am
willing to help make it better and more usable.

Also, a major problem with IPS is that Sun encouraged people to use it
to _consume_ packages, but they didn't encourage people to _create_
packages. We need a self-fueling ecosystem of packages.

I also think that SmartOS's diskless boot model is great. I think that
booting from disk is great too. Shouldn't OI support both? I'm willing
to contribute to this.

I know these ideas come from SmartOS to some extent, but they are
great ideas that could make OI better! Making a new distribution is
one way to try to make things better. But I think a metamorphosis in
the OI distro will be more effective. I want the many Illumos distros
to be held up as an example of triumphant collaboration, 5 years from
now. But that will happen only if we avoid going down the path of
NIH-inspired suicide.

So, in short I am willing to contribute, to OpenIndiana and Illumos. I
will get OI-151 installed today or tomorrow.

I will try to build illumos-gate, and will report back with any problems.

I would appreciate any pointers on making new packages.

Is it possible to make a new zone without an internet connection?

Where can I find the OI plans for future IPS features and improvements.

 Also, I don't know if this is available in your repos, but if not, I
am going to port and package the i3 window manager for OI, if I have
trouble I'll let you guys know.

I am going to see what I can do about pre-built NG zones.

I will try to find resources about NG zones, making new brands,
modifying existing brands, etc.

Also, I recommend updating the mission statement on the web page. It
is "coming soon", and not very inspiring.

I recommend something along the lines of "making cutting edge
technology available to power users on the desktop..." and then
advertise the technologies. Trust me, it is the power users, not the
simple desktop users that you want. Basically an incubator for future
illumos devs, and a platform for those who like to play with cool tech
they won't get anywhere else.

Thanks.

On Sat, Sep 1, 2012 at 2:35 AM, Adam Števko <adam.stevko at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi Nick,
>
> first of all, nicely written, man!  I am Adam. I work on some bits of OI,
> mostly packaging, documentation and help running OI infrastructure from
> development servers to mirrors. I like OpenIndiana as I find the quality of
> technologies found here. I can be found in #oi-dev at irc.freenode.net, just
> pm xenol any time. I will respond sooner or later.
>
> I would like to ask you if you would be interested in contributing to
> OpenIndiana, e.g maintaining some packages, fixing broken things etc?
>
> Cheers,
>
> Adam
>
> Begin forwarded message:
>
> From: Nick Zivkovic <zivkovic.nick at gmail.com>
> Subject: [oi-dev] Desktop Illumos Still Matters
> Date: September 1, 2012 7:17:01 AM GMT+02:00
> To: oi-dev at openindiana.org, discuss at lists.illumos.org
> Reply-To: OpenIndiana Developer mailing list <oi-dev at openindiana.org>
>
> I was just reading through the oi-dev archives (about the resignation
> of the OI lead) where a former Sun engineer, claimed that the efforts
> made by sun to port OpenSolaris to the desktop/laptop platforms (by
> adding wifi support, by making a new audio system, etc), only hurt Sun
> in the long run, and that it was all for nothing.
>
> I agree that it probably hurt Sun in the long run. But I promise that
> it was not for nothing.
>
> I started using OpenSolaris some time in 2006 or 2007. I was 16 then,
> and didn't know anything about programming. The availability of the
> OpenSolaris distribution, is what gave me, a mere mortal, the ability
> to store files in a 3-way ZFS mirror (a teen would not be able to
> afford an enterprise RAID card). To play with DTrace and illuminate
> the inner workings of the system. OpenSolaris is the platform that I
> started writing my first serious code on. It is the platform that I
> write code on to this day. It was and still is a joy to use DTrace
> daily, and to transport data between machines as ZFS datasets, and not
> as tar-balls. It is bliss to have inline compression and
> deduplication. Fast and free snapshots.
>
> Most Illumos devs take these things for granted. They are all
> professional engineers, whom I respect deeply. But in 2006 I was a
> mere teenager, who was merely enthusiastic about administering
> unix-like systems. I guess switching between Linux distros, and being
> different made me feel "elite".
>
> But the truth is, I was a pretender. I was a mere hobbyist, looking
> for a distraction. Something that would make life less boring and
> humdrum. I meandered about the web, not knowing what kind of
> distraction I was looking for.
>
> Funny youtube videos? Yeah those were okay. But they got stale and
> weren't as stimulating.
>
> Video games? Stimulating, but tiring. Not fulfilling. Almost
> masturbatory in nature.
>
> Porn? Same as video games, though slightly more effective.
>
> Going out / hanging out? Only in short bursts. Doing it constantly
> made me tired and fatigued.
>
> Setting up a Linux distro had its own kind of high. It lasted longer.
> But once you've set up a distro, you can't really leave it alone. You
> either have to try another distro, or upgrade the existing distro. I
> can't explain how I longed for upgrades. Especially on Gentoo. That
> was the high of _assembling_ something that worked.
>
> Of making an otherwise blank machine come to life, and operate in a
> customized manner. (As customized a manner as possible for a
> non-coder).
>
> But it wasn't until I tried OpenSolaris that I made a decision to
> learn to code proficiently. For several reasons. The burst of
> innovation that came with OpenSolaris (ZFS, DTrace, etc), made me
> aware that software/computing had unsolved problems (or problems in
> need of better solutions). The availability of DTrace, and the
> prospect of being able to see what the machine is doing (and hence
> what my own code is doing), was too tempting a technology to ignore. I
> understood that the technologies in OpenSolaris would best facilitate
> my new-found need to create, to build, to engineer solutions to
> problems. Namely my problems, but problems nonetheless.
>
> But if OpenSolaris were not usable on the desktop -- If it didn't have
> support for things like audio and wifi -- I would never have
> considered it. I would never have decided that writing code might be a
> good idea. I would have never discovered one of the most exhilarating,
> blissful, and strangest activities that we humans have come up with.
> Coding has been the most profound and intense experience of my life. I
> don't know exactly when it started changing me, I just know that it
> did. And I am glad it did. If I hadn't chanced down the OpenSolaris
> road, I probably would have ended up an uninspired burnout, a wasted
> bag of cells.
>
> If Illumos were to disappear from the desktop. Or even from the world.
> I would be disappointed. But I would move on, because I already know
> the bliss of writing code, and I'll do it elsewhere, even if the
> environment and tools are not as agreeable. One wouldn't be able to
> stop a writer from writing his heart out, by taking away his
> typewriter and giving him a quill and parchment.
>
> But when I think that there is some kid out there who is bored out of
> his skull and wandering aimlessly, because, quite frankly, he is too
> smart for average activities, who may never learn the joys of the art
> of programming because some developers decided that they're content
> letting Illumos's basic desktop capabilities atrophy over time as new
> devices replace old devices... well, my heart breaks.
>
> Because these kids might be those that never get inspired, and waste
> their lives on stupidity.
>
> I'm not saying that the Illumos engineers are doing the wrong thing.
> In fact I think they are all doing the right things. I hope Illumos
> retains the desktop essentials (usb1/2/3/N, wifi, audio, modern
> browser); that's all that's needed to get someone started down the
> path of writing code. Desktop Illumos isn't supposed to replace Ubuntu
> and Mac. It is supposed to attract a certain kind of personality, that
> will _create_ more than they consume. (believe me, I'm writing
> fascinating code, that I'm not ready to reveal yet; well, I find it
> fascinating).
>
> All I am saying is that those seemingly useless projects (wifi, audio)
> undertaken by Sun, were not useless to me, and not useless to Illumos.
> And I suspect such projects will not be useless to future generations
> of engineers, and future revisions of Illumos.
>
> My apologies if this email is discombobulated or off-topic (it is very
> late here, and I am out of coffee). But I needed to respond, and offer
> opposition to the idea that desktop capabilities were without benefit.
> Especially since I was one of the (presumably many) beneficiaries of
> OpenSolaris. The benefit is happening at the edges of graph. And I
> think that this benefit will ripple back to the center of the graph,
> when the inspired amateurs, begin contributing code and seeking jobs
> at companies that hire Illumos talent.
>
> Thanks to everyone from Sun and the Illumos community.
>
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