[oi-dev] Desktop Illumos Still Matters

Sun Sep 2 14:00:19 UTC 2012

Hi Nick,

On Sep 1, 2012, at 5:42 PM, Nick Zivkovic <zivkovic.nick at gmail.com> wrote:

> Yes. I am more interested in contributing drivers and the like. As far
> as packages go, to be honest, I've experienced torture at the hands of
> IPS (though that could very easily be my fault), and am reluctant go
> near it. For example I tried an image-update and it failed. So I am
> stuck on OI-147 until I backup-reinstall-import to OI-151a.
> 
> I think packages are a high priority, but not as high as making sure
> the latest illumos-gate can build and run on a modern desktop. For
> example, I can't get SmartOS running on a thinkpad or my desktop
> computer. Somewhere in June 2012, a bug was introduced that prevents
> the illumos kernel from booting. If I had been building and testing
> the latest source, that bug could probably have been caught before it
> got buried in a mountain of commits. Now, I image, it is like finding
> a needle in a haystack.
I couldn't agree more that having great hardware support is very important. Although, packages available in the repository should have a high-priority. If you enjoy hacking on illumos-gate then just do it, everyone using it will benefit from it. Also, If you use OpenIndiana with software that is not available via repositories and you are willing to maintain those things, feel free to do so. Any additional questions about packaging/developing will be gladly answered.

> I am willing to assist with packages, but my time is limited, and I
> think it is more important to direct my effort to building
> illumos-gate and writing drivers. Also, making packages is still a
> black art to me, and wouldn't know where to start.
Everything related to packaging can be found at http://wiki.illumos.org/display/illumos/illumos-userland

> 
> But since we are already on the topic of packages, Adam, do you think
> there is a way to make it less painful, more consistent? I'm _not_
> talking about extreme measures like changing from IPS to
> [DEB/RPM/SVR/etc]. I'm wondering if we could 1) make IPS easier to use
> by documenting stuff in an easily accessible way [the man pages aren't
> very helpful] 2) document every single IPS failure and either fix the
> packages or the IPS code (depend on what caused the failure),
IPS is documented in the official IPS Developer Guide located somewhere in the OpenSolaris/Oracle page. I went it through lately and I find it a good source for learning to work with IPS, in general. 

The error documentation could be doable, although I am not sure if it will benefit us that much. Further discussions are needed for this imho.

> and 3)
> have IPS install all userland libs to a zfs dataset named rpool/ips or
> rpool/pkgs; this way, we can zfs-send these datasets, and snap-shot
> them, and clone them, without pulling in the rest of the file-system
> heirarchy. This would make my bitterness toward IPS reduce
> significantly. This way, you can migrate different user-land configs
> between systems. Also, an easy way to do updates across a multitude of
> systems. One can share their binaries and packages via zfs-send,
> because they won't destroy an existing system's /usr /bin and so
> forth. Also, OI would benefit tremendously from offering pre-made NG
> zones on the web-site, available for downloading and running. In fact,
> we could use Zones as a delivery mechanism for things like an Illumos
> build-environment. An NG zone can contain a working and sandboxed
> version of firefox. Zones are a great technology that can make the
> system more attractive amateur power users who may become programmers
> some day (like I did). Multiple ways of sharing pre-compiled binaries
> can only help OI and Illumos. In fact I can see people sharing
> datasets with packages via bit-torrent. Plus, incremental send/recv is
> a huge benefit.

OpenIndiana aims to be a general-purpose traditional distribution usable on server or desktop, not a hypervisor (although kvm and qemu packages can be found in the repositories). 

The zone thingie is a great idea imo. Delivering prebuilt zone usable for packaging and Illumos development could ease certain things for developers and help them concentrate more on the development. But again, this can be delivered also as a meta package available via IPS.

> We might even be able to integrate a window manager (like i3 or dwm)
> so that switching virtual desktop, actually switches to another zone.
> 
> What kind of changes to IPS are OI willing to accept? I am willing to
> test and improve a lot of code. As I said, I dislike IPS. But I am
> willing to help make it better and more usable.

I am not sure. People more involved with IPS should comment on this.

> Also, a major problem with IPS is that Sun encouraged people to use it
> to _consume_ packages, but they didn't encourage people to _create_
> packages. We need a self-fueling ecosystem of packages.
There is already a oi-build, which needs more packages and updates. oi-build is based on Oracle's userland-gate and is used for building software found in OpenIndiana repositories.

> 
> I also think that SmartOS's diskless boot model is great. I think that
> booting from disk is great too. Shouldn't OI support both? I'm willing
> to contribute to this.
This could give OpenIndiana some advantages. However, I see more benefits in making changes to installer, so that OpenIndiana could be installed on zfs mirrors or raidz.

> 
> I know these ideas come from SmartOS to some extent, but they are
> great ideas that could make OI better! Making a new distribution is
> one way to try to make things better. But I think a metamorphosis in
> the OI distro will be more effective. I want the many Illumos distros
> to be held up as an example of triumphant collaboration, 5 years from
> now. But that will happen only if we avoid going down the path of
> NIH-inspired suicide.
> 
> So, in short I am willing to contribute, to OpenIndiana and Illumos. I
> will get OI-151 installed today or tomorrow.
> 
> I will try to build illumos-gate, and will report back with any problems.
> 
> I would appreciate any pointers on making new packages.
http://wiki.illumos.org/display/illumos/Building+with+illumos-userland and any other questions can be answered via  communication channels (IRC, mailing list).

> 
> Is it possible to make a new zone without an internet connection?
It is possible, but you have to have local copy of the package repository.

> 
> Where can I find the OI plans for future IPS features and improvements.
I am not sure if anything like that exists. Maybe others could comment.

> 
> Also, I don't know if this is available in your repos, but if not, I
> am going to port and package the i3 window manager for OI, if I have
> trouble I'll let you guys know.
> 
> I am going to see what I can do about pre-built NG zones.
> 
> I will try to find resources about NG zones, making new brands,
> modifying existing brands, etc.
> 
> Also, I recommend updating the mission statement on the web page. It
> is "coming soon", and not very inspiring.
> 
> I recommend something along the lines of "making cutting edge
> technology available to power users on the desktop..." and then
> advertise the technologies. Trust me, it is the power users, not the
> simple desktop users that you want. Basically an incubator for future
> illumos devs, and a platform for those who like to play with cool tech
> they won't get anywhere else.
> 
> Thanks.
> 

Cheers,

Adam