[OpenIndiana-discuss] [oi-dev] [illumos-Developer] OpenIndiana and illumos, part 2

Michael Stapleton michael.stapleton at techsologic.com
Sun Nov 21 16:28:46 UTC 2010

Very nice Gabriel. 

I for one would be happy to share a beer with you or anyone else who is
on this list for that matter. I think it's safe to say that anyone one
who is on this list is a little special. I think it's also safe to say
that we all share a common desire to see this great OS continue to be
so. Considering what has happed to OpenSolaris and SUN, It's
understandable and forgivable for one to become frustrated and
defensive. I certainly feel that way at times. 



Yes, the word "special" can be interpreted in many ways, and they
probably all somewhat apply. ;-)

On Sun, 2010-11-21 at 16:19 +0200, Gabriel de la Cruz wrote:

> Dear Mr Christopher Chan
> Different points of view, remarks, or complains of any short from person to
> person shouldn't be understood as serious faults to the honor of anyone, as
> long as we do not involve insults. In my opinion all wounds from the
> previous fire should be now cured, and I honestly don't think the current
> thread even points out to the past.
> For whatever that might have cause disturbance for you, I should apologize.
> After analyzing the situation for some time I would like to highlight the
> possibility of cultural or interdisciplinary misunderstandings in the
> back-end of the current conflict. Probably we are misunderstanding certain
> responses as more insulting than what they really are for the one expressing
> them. It is obvious that we talk the same language, but probably we are
> missing the real meaning of things. In Europe the use of irony is very
> frequent, for example French are specially difficult in that sense, they
> could spend the whole day throwing subliminal irony over you and still be
> your best friends. And yes they complain, all the time, for everything. If a
> french guy mocks at you by twisting the nicest poetry, you are not supposed
> to get angry but probably you are expected to pay back, but always between
> the lines, not really fighting back. Another example all the way around
> could be expressions like; "chéng zhǎng", if translated as "grow up" could
> be pretty humiliating at some places in Europe, while is not as harsh if you
> read it in Chinese.
> I meet daily with designers and we appreciate non sense commentaries as it
> is efficient while brainstorming, as well we like the conversations to be
> free from any form of censorship or even moderation as may things could
> otherwise just vanish.
> The relationship with respect and figures of authority are not the same all
> around the world, I never had the pleasure to visit Hong Kong, but I can
> share some curiosities from the time I was living in Beijing; I remember I
> was hanging around Renmin University during a whole summer, I was meeting
> daily one of the persons who were coordinating the foreign students, as I
> was joining some interesting lectures and excursions just because of my own
> interest. That person asumed I was student because of the fact I was meeting
> regularly with the group of Finnish students, and kept all the way treating
> me with a very official attitude, he was sweating under the sun with me but
> kept all the time a perfectly correct manners, not even showing he needed
> water.  But one of those extremely hot days, he realized I was a faculty
> member, not a student, so he suddenly relaxed completely down and was
> finally able to enjoy the time together. He didn't need to show his position
> anymore... We had quite much better time after this moment. This might seem
> very normal for a chinese, but to me it was all a discovery!. Probably I
> have been mistreating my Chinese student for years, treating him as if he
> was just my self..
> What I came to say is, we are very different, I do not think there is bad
> intention anywhere in this list, people complains when they have to, but
> within some limits. Respect does not take the same form everywhere, we
> should just apply a *presumption of innocence* concept, no one is guilty
> unless we can prove something else.
> If you were around the corner, I would invite you for a beer, what is in my
> terms certain form of honor.
> All the best
> Gabriel
> On Sun, Nov 21, 2010 at 11:38 AM, Christopher Chan <
> christopher.chan at bradbury.edu.hk> wrote:
> > On Saturday, November 20, 2010 05:40 PM, Jose-Marcio Martins da Cruz wrote:
> >
> >> Christopher Chan wrote:
> >>
> >>> On Saturday, November 20, 2010 07:56 AM, Gary wrote:
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >>>> I'm replying to this thread here instead of on the developer lest
> >>>> someone issue me a netiquette citation for being off topic. How do you
> >>>> quantify something like that? Even if you have some industry confirmed
> >>>> sales numbers comparable to IDC tracking desktop PC and notebook
> >>>> sales, how do you figure out just how many users a server has
> >>>> regardless of its operating system? Does a web server have a half
> >>>> dozen users because there are two sysadmins, two content providers,
> >>>> and two developers? Or does it have 10 million unique visitors every
> >>>> day and therefore have ten million and six users? Whenever I see this
> >>>> comment it boggles my mind -- especially when in the context of Unix
> >>>> systems regardless of flavor. For example, the commercial OSes that
> >>>> have sold licenses based on 10 users or unlimited users. Ten users of
> >>>> what? Shell accounts? Ten entries in the password file? What does that
> >>>> mean and how can you claim that one OS has more "users" than any
> >>>> another?
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>> I think we can safely assume this to mean installations. Number of
> >>> people that actually use the installation would seriously inflate the
> >>> numbers. If we go by the latter, you have more than 750 users of
> >>> OpenIndiana already from just my installations alone.
> >>>
> >>
> >> Thanks Chris, you've perfectly understook this even without knowing the
> >> context I said it.
> >>
> >> <rant on>
> >> In some communities it's becoming really hard to open your mouth without
> >> risking to be flamed...
> >> </rant off>
> >>
> >
> > In what way did I flame Gary? If expressing my opinion equates flaming then
> > I feel very sorry for you. In fact, if you want an example of a flame, maybe
> > what seems to be a sarcastic reply higher up seems to smack of a flame more
> > than my reply since I did not imply anything about Gary.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >> But in the context, I told that if OI wants to innovate, a support from
> >> some big companies is a requirement.
> >>
> >> And to explain what innovate means, in my mind, I'm thinking about
> >> things like improving the kernel threads model, or creating new
> >> features, *from scratch* as did Sun, features like ZFS, DTrace, zones
> >> and so...
> >>
> >> Examples of inovation mentionned at oi-dev list are adding KDE, or
> >> removing the question "are you in a sub net" when using "zlogin -C" for
> >> the first time. In my mind, these are just examples of integration
> >> solutions, hacks, or similar things, not innovations...
> >>
> >
> > So they are not innovations that sprung out of nothing but when doing
> > something new by integrating existing technology to bring about a more
> > comprehensive experience sure counts in my book.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >> So, to really innovate, at research level, you shall be funded and
> >> supported by someone, with a team big enough and with required skills...
> >> Not just a small hand of integrators, as it seems we have here.
> >>
> >> Examples of FOSS supported by big companies are are Fedora, postfix,
> >> sendmail (for some time) ...
> >>
> >> And, as I said, if the number of, say, installations, is very low, it's
> >> harder to get some support from big companies...
> >>
> >
> > postfix was written from scratch without any existing user base by Wietse
> > for IBM. Upstart in Ubuntu likewise for Canonical. So too reiserfs for an
> > example of something in a kernel for DARPA. Linux itself had zero commercial
> > support in the beginning. The number of installations or the number of users
> > does not necessarily have any contributing factor to whether some 'big
> > company' will support the research and development of something. The Linux
> > kernel was offered an enhancement feature by a single person who was not a C
> > programmer by trade. I am not saying that this is the way to go but that we
> > should not preclude innovation (features from scratch as written in your
> > book) coming from seemingly impossibly resource constrained sources.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >> Just a complement, I'm not expecting OI to remain, in the future, fully
> >> compatible with Solaris, as I think it will undoubtely diverge. I expect
> >> OI to be just an alternative to Oracle Solaris. In the same way that
> >> creating a new OS 100 % compatible with Microsoft Windows is something
> >> nobody is looking for.
> >>
> >> Well, I'll close my mouth, from now...
> >>
> >>
> > We can't have that. If everybody stays mum then how can we get a list of
> > ideas for vetting? For now I think we should stop worrying about where
> > innovation will come from and concentrate on keeping Openindiana relevant.
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
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> > OpenIndiana-discuss at openindiana.org
> > http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
> >
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