[OpenIndiana-discuss] [oi-dev] [illumos-Developer] OpenIndiana and illumos, part 2

Sun Nov 21 18:27:02 UTC 2010

Your last argument could be only refuted by Monty Python, when Brian states:
"We are all different"... everybody agrees but a guy from the back rises the
hand and answers "not me". Everyone else is special but that guy.

Cheers

On Sun, Nov 21, 2010 at 6:28 PM, Michael Stapleton <
michael.stapleton at techsologic.com> wrote:

> Very nice Gabriel.
>
> I for one would be happy to share a beer with you or anyone else who is
> on this list for that matter. I think it's safe to say that anyone one
> who is on this list is a little special. I think it's also safe to say
> that we all share a common desire to see this great OS continue to be
> so. Considering what has happed to OpenSolaris and SUN, It's
> understandable and forgivable for one to become frustrated and
> defensive. I certainly feel that way at times.
>
>
>
> Mike
>
> P.S.
>
> Yes, the word "special" can be interpreted in many ways, and they
> probably all somewhat apply. ;-)
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sun, 2010-11-21 at 16:19 +0200, Gabriel de la Cruz wrote:
>
> > Dear Mr Christopher Chan
> >
> > Different points of view, remarks, or complains of any short from person
> to
> > person shouldn't be understood as serious faults to the honor of anyone,
> as
> > long as we do not involve insults. In my opinion all wounds from the
> > previous fire should be now cured, and I honestly don't think the current
> > thread even points out to the past.
> > For whatever that might have cause disturbance for you, I should
> apologize.
> > After analyzing the situation for some time I would like to highlight the
> > possibility of cultural or interdisciplinary misunderstandings in the
> > back-end of the current conflict. Probably we are misunderstanding
> certain
> > responses as more insulting than what they really are for the one
> expressing
> > them. It is obvious that we talk the same language, but probably we are
> > missing the real meaning of things. In Europe the use of irony is very
> > frequent, for example French are specially difficult in that sense, they
> > could spend the whole day throwing subliminal irony over you and still be
> > your best friends. And yes they complain, all the time, for everything.
> If a
> > french guy mocks at you by twisting the nicest poetry, you are not
> supposed
> > to get angry but probably you are expected to pay back, but always
> between
> > the lines, not really fighting back. Another example all the way around
> > could be expressions like; "chéng zhǎng", if translated as "grow up"
> could
> > be pretty humiliating at some places in Europe, while is not as harsh if
> you
> > read it in Chinese.
> > I meet daily with designers and we appreciate non sense commentaries as
> it
> > is efficient while brainstorming, as well we like the conversations to be
> > free from any form of censorship or even moderation as may things could
> > otherwise just vanish.
> > The relationship with respect and figures of authority are not the same
> all
> > around the world, I never had the pleasure to visit Hong Kong, but I can
> > share some curiosities from the time I was living in Beijing; I remember
> I
> > was hanging around Renmin University during a whole summer, I was meeting
> > daily one of the persons who were coordinating the foreign students, as I
> > was joining some interesting lectures and excursions just because of my
> own
> > interest. That person asumed I was student because of the fact I was
> meeting
> > regularly with the group of Finnish students, and kept all the way
> treating
> > me with a very official attitude, he was sweating under the sun with me
> but
> > kept all the time a perfectly correct manners, not even showing he needed
> > water.  But one of those extremely hot days, he realized I was a faculty
> > member, not a student, so he suddenly relaxed completely down and was
> > finally able to enjoy the time together. He didn't need to show his
> position
> > anymore... We had quite much better time after this moment. This might
> seem
> > very normal for a chinese, but to me it was all a discovery!. Probably I
> > have been mistreating my Chinese student for years, treating him as if he
> > was just my self..
> > What I came to say is, we are very different, I do not think there is bad
> > intention anywhere in this list, people complains when they have to, but
> > within some limits. Respect does not take the same form everywhere, we
> > should just apply a *presumption of innocence* concept, no one is guilty
> > unless we can prove something else.
> >
> > If you were around the corner, I would invite you for a beer, what is in
> my
> > terms certain form of honor.
> >
> > All the best
> > Gabriel
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Sun, Nov 21, 2010 at 11:38 AM, Christopher Chan <
> > christopher.chan at bradbury.edu.hk> wrote:
> >
> > > On Saturday, November 20, 2010 05:40 PM, Jose-Marcio Martins da Cruz
> wrote:
> > >
> > >> Christopher Chan wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> On Saturday, November 20, 2010 07:56 AM, Gary wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>>> I'm replying to this thread here instead of on the developer lest
> > >>>> someone issue me a netiquette citation for being off topic. How do
> you
> > >>>> quantify something like that? Even if you have some industry
> confirmed
> > >>>> sales numbers comparable to IDC tracking desktop PC and notebook
> > >>>> sales, how do you figure out just how many users a server has
> > >>>> regardless of its operating system? Does a web server have a half
> > >>>> dozen users because there are two sysadmins, two content providers,
> > >>>> and two developers? Or does it have 10 million unique visitors every
> > >>>> day and therefore have ten million and six users? Whenever I see
> this
> > >>>> comment it boggles my mind -- especially when in the context of Unix
> > >>>> systems regardless of flavor. For example, the commercial OSes that
> > >>>> have sold licenses based on 10 users or unlimited users. Ten users
> of
> > >>>> what? Shell accounts? Ten entries in the password file? What does
> that
> > >>>> mean and how can you claim that one OS has more "users" than any
> > >>>> another?
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>> I think we can safely assume this to mean installations. Number of
> > >>> people that actually use the installation would seriously inflate the
> > >>> numbers. If we go by the latter, you have more than 750 users of
> > >>> OpenIndiana already from just my installations alone.
> > >>>
> > >>
> > >> Thanks Chris, you've perfectly understook this even without knowing
> the
> > >> context I said it.
> > >>
> > >> <rant on>
> > >> In some communities it's becoming really hard to open your mouth
> without
> > >> risking to be flamed...
> > >> </rant off>
> > >>
> > >
> > > In what way did I flame Gary? If expressing my opinion equates flaming
> then
> > > I feel very sorry for you. In fact, if you want an example of a flame,
> maybe
> > > what seems to be a sarcastic reply higher up seems to smack of a flame
> more
> > > than my reply since I did not imply anything about Gary.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >> But in the context, I told that if OI wants to innovate, a support
> from
> > >> some big companies is a requirement.
> > >>
> > >> And to explain what innovate means, in my mind, I'm thinking about
> > >> things like improving the kernel threads model, or creating new
> > >> features, *from scratch* as did Sun, features like ZFS, DTrace, zones
> > >> and so...
> > >>
> > >> Examples of inovation mentionned at oi-dev list are adding KDE, or
> > >> removing the question "are you in a sub net" when using "zlogin -C"
> for
> > >> the first time. In my mind, these are just examples of integration
> > >> solutions, hacks, or similar things, not innovations...
> > >>
> > >
> > > So they are not innovations that sprung out of nothing but when doing
> > > something new by integrating existing technology to bring about a more
> > > comprehensive experience sure counts in my book.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >> So, to really innovate, at research level, you shall be funded and
> > >> supported by someone, with a team big enough and with required
> skills...
> > >> Not just a small hand of integrators, as it seems we have here.
> > >>
> > >> Examples of FOSS supported by big companies are are Fedora, postfix,
> > >> sendmail (for some time) ...
> > >>
> > >> And, as I said, if the number of, say, installations, is very low,
> it's
> > >> harder to get some support from big companies...
> > >>
> > >
> > > postfix was written from scratch without any existing user base by
> Wietse
> > > for IBM. Upstart in Ubuntu likewise for Canonical. So too reiserfs for
> an
> > > example of something in a kernel for DARPA. Linux itself had zero
> commercial
> > > support in the beginning. The number of installations or the number of
> users
> > > does not necessarily have any contributing factor to whether some 'big
> > > company' will support the research and development of something. The
> Linux
> > > kernel was offered an enhancement feature by a single person who was
> not a C
> > > programmer by trade. I am not saying that this is the way to go but
> that we
> > > should not preclude innovation (features from scratch as written in
> your
> > > book) coming from seemingly impossibly resource constrained sources.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >> Just a complement, I'm not expecting OI to remain, in the future,
> fully
> > >> compatible with Solaris, as I think it will undoubtely diverge. I
> expect
> > >> OI to be just an alternative to Oracle Solaris. In the same way that
> > >> creating a new OS 100 % compatible with Microsoft Windows is something
> > >> nobody is looking for.
> > >>
> > >> Well, I'll close my mouth, from now...
> > >>
> > >>
> > > We can't have that. If everybody stays mum then how can we get a list
> of
> > > ideas for vetting? For now I think we should stop worrying about where
> > > innovation will come from and concentrate on keeping Openindiana
> relevant.
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list
> > > OpenIndiana-discuss at openindiana.org
> > > http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list
> > OpenIndiana-discuss at openindiana.org
> > http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list
> OpenIndiana-discuss at openindiana.org
> http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
>