[oi-dev] [HEADSUP] X server update in OpenIndiana Hipster

[ken mays]

Nikola,

 On Tuesday, February 24, 2015 12:03 AM, Nikola M <minikola at gmail.com> wrote:
  
 On 02/24/15 01:18 AM, ken mays via oi-dev wrote:
  
  Nikolai, 
   
 Hi, my name is Nikola (without 'i') ;)
 
  As far as Intel DRM work for illumos, that is proposed for GSoC 2015 development which ends Q4 2015.  
 It is great to know. 
 It is then unknown what people with Intel graphics will do with their hardware, that want to install on and test Hipster in meantime?
 Also removing support for older graphics is never discussed anywhere as I know (we were just hit by update and people started reporting disastrous effects to their desktops). It is just done without asking.
 Maybe reconsider of leaving supported Xorg and drivers in their place or with an old/new name so it could be auto recognized and used?
 
  
 ----> They can use previous releases. There are many times when a new OS release drops support for previous hardware (or software) - without much forewarning to existing customers. But, we actually did mention it and it is mentioned if you follow the X release notes (and previous implementations and updates of Solaris X implementations and blogs/news/articles). There was a five year history to this discussion of moving to a newer X infrastructure for OI. You can only boil an egg so long before it cracks...

 As far as Martin, there is Martin's OpenSXCE distro. He currently mentioned a new release.  
 
 There's no source code that follows OpenSXCE releases, correct me if I am wrong.
 
---> Martin mentioned he'd provide source code to his supporters. This is mentioned on his distro release and was in a previous blog. Also, some of his work pulled from existing consolidation source models. Just ask him what his current process is if you want it.
 
  Also, there is Tribblix. Both distros are desktop-centric and support older Intel GPU chipsets (but not the newer ones). There is still the Hipster-20141010 ISO release you use today. 
   
 
 So you suggest moving from OI Hipster to other distro if wanting to continue using existing hardware?
 
---> No, we'd like for you to stay. But, I do mention similar alternatives that may meet your needs today or use of the officially provided OI 'releases'. 
 It is funny to call Hipster ISOs - releases, because it could be said that then publishers that are installed with them could receive updates and support?
 Which I am not sure it right, because actual reason ISOs and freezes of Hipster exist is because Hipster re-build all packages all the time and because updating takes longer and longer, there is need for starting from blank history of updates, so that installing packages dont' consume so much RAM and takes so long, not tend to give support?
 Also ISOs are there in Hipster to be able to install it on bare metal/hardware , because updating from /dev to Hipster last time worked almost 2 years ago and no one actually care to have release that could update from /dev.
 
---> There is no official release yet. The lead release manager usually tests migration to the latest ISO release and backward compatibility. But that is due to workload and volunteer resources available to handle that. 
  
  As far as Hipster, there are the supported ISO releases. The Hipster-2015 IPS repo is a moving target (considered 'dev', bleeding edge, or 'hair on fire' development) not for general production or day-to-day operations. There are other snapshots that may produce 'tested' package releases - which is really what you are discussing. True development releases are never for the general public (aka users) - if untested by 'QA'.  
 
 We need then something that actually IS for end users as a product of an effort.
 Hipster is not that kind of product, and yes, there is need for tested product.
 
 As I used Hipster for exactly everyday work for a long time (and reported all bugs I could on IRC and lists) , I must confess I have seen accumulation of bugs without fixing.
 Is it better "updating everything and not caring for introduced bugs" or "have working  AND development releases separate from each other", with clear intent that updates work - is maybe better solution?
 
 
  
  If you are tracking new releases from Hipster Dev which happens to plunge your desktop environment into a dark abyss, remember the rule: Either press the panic button or don't do it!!!  
 That would not be the case IF Hipster would have "entire" package numbered on every update,
 so that user can update to specific point in time in Hipster updates, 
 to debug what change break what already working function of an OS.
 You always get "latest" Hipster , with no way of turning a step back and think if update was introducing more bugs of fixing existing ones.
 
With Boot Environments on top of ZFS, we using and testing OI have best possible solutions for testing it is just that we don't use what we have to the full.

 ---> Good points. There was work on this effort, and maybe we need to have better checkpoints in place.

  
  The drop of support for the older Intel driver is by design of the newer X infrastructure - not us. We are moving to the newer Xorg Intel driver(s) and when Intel DRM for illumos is in place - we will strike the iron while hot... 
   
 So as I understand, Intel support for OI Hipster will never come back,
 and there is nothing to do, but to roll separate distro or use other distro but OI Hipster so that graphics could continue to work? (Or wait for 2 years for illumos DRM to land...)
 
---> Hmm..never mentioned that. I don't advise anyone to update their day-to-day production environment to a dev environment without understanding the risks. That dark abyss only awaits you... 
 I think it is _much_ more important for OI in general to actually support present and existing users and hardware at a moment.
 It is all great to have newer hardware support but I think that removing driver and Xorg support for existing widespread graphics hardware, will toss away new users from testing "bleading edge" development releases, and is disastrous to the future of OI Hipster project.
 
--> We do support existing users which is why it was done. Updates were requested long ago. That is whyI mentioned those other distros. That is why oi_151a releases are provided and the older Hipster releases still exist.
 I suggest there could be solution of leaving Xorg and driver support where it is for existing intel graphics users. I don't see any benefit of tossing it away.
 
 Thing is, I have been wrestling with Hipster for a very long time now and I don't see a point of it anymore.
 There are no formed teams, there are  no pointed and publicly discussed goals for a project.
 ---> We didn't drop any Intel support outside of what the new Intel 2.99.917 driver provides today. Oh, and I misspoke earlier about GSoC. Sadly, it seems the mentor application date for GSoC 2015 was missed.We'd like to support your Intel GPU-based laptop and desktop needs - and respect your opinions. Just that we made some hard decisions to get us to this point. Its nice to know faithful people users are using the OI distro for this long, so we'll work on resolving some of issues mentioned... 
~K

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